In this day and age of nasty uniformity we must be brief on the latter due to a shortage of examples. I suggest you try read some Beckerath (not that he got anybody going) as I do not tire of telling you .. .whenever I emerge from tired of telling you anythingness that is.
Apotheosis (yet another instance) of the classic 'preaching to the choir desire' -- this time starring Louis Proyect, Dennis Perrin, the leninologyspotted blog and marccooper as the ratty prosecutors and stone casters with those (sorta clumsily) asking to crumble them after humblin' themselves enough to wonder if there could possibly be a reason for such last wishes beyond self preservation(montages) and ‘mpug’ (libero) -- coming right up (after that what led up to this) :
At one point things seemed to settle down honkidorily (that is, mikey posts a link, Doug reads it and comments):
radicalsociety.com/article_32_01_01.htmlIn which George Packer says:
>First of all, I never took a stand on the war in public, so that I
>could have actually faked it in my book and said, "In fact, I
>actually decided on that night of March 19 that I was against the
>war." No one would have known the difference because I hadn't come
>out in favor of it. I'm somehow being punished for having told
>readers, long after it became a very unpopular cause, what I was
>thinking. I thought I owed it to the reader because I'm a citizen
>too. But in a way it's irrelevant. That's not the position I'm in.
>That's not my role. My role was to chronicle, to understand, to
>perceive. Remember that the chroniclers of the Vietnam War, like
>Halberstam and Sheehan-the best ones-were pro-war when they went to
>Vietnam, and they'll say that in their books. They then went to see
>and gradually began to feel that the war, whether or not it could
>have been won in the beginning, was not being won, and they began to
>ask why wasn't it being won, and what did that say about us and what
>did it say about Vietnam; and in the end Sheehan believed that it
>couldn't have been won from the beginning because it was a war of
>Vietnamese nationalism. I don't think Iraq is the same in that way,
>but what's interesting is the change in our political culture, where
>someone in my position, who is essentially doing the same thing, is
>required to issue an apology or a mea culpa. That's recent. That's
>about the culture wars and the Clinton wars and the Bush wars. It's
>not about Iraq.
To which I can only say, fuck George Packer. Just before the war
started, that little creep made fun of Liza for being a naive leftist
for opposing the invasion. He deserves a lot more than being forced
to utter a mea culpa.
Doug
Piet:
things appear ok again but then that damn lenin has to repeat the words with which Perrin slandered poor puggie and a liddul ladur (next post in fact, proving my warning to have been of no avail) this:
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/ Week-of-Mon-20060501/037637.htmlMichael: For Dennis,
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/ 2006/05/juan_cole_the_f.htmlSmooches from the Pooches
Dennis Perrin wrote: Laborious, contrived, and right up your alley, asshole.
last substantial contribution leading up to that jilt:
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk /Week-of-Mon-20060501/037605.htmlMichael, you seem to be on permanent halo busting detail.
During the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq,
Robert Fisk's name came up a lot because at the time
his reports were often linked and excerpted.
You scanned the broad vistas of the Internet to find
whatever counter Fisk articles were available.
More recently, the question of Chomsky's alleged
downplaying of Pol Pot's crimes was discussed. Thanks
to you, I was exposed (via links) to a torrent of
rambling, anit-Chomsky blog posts from all sorts of
odd axe grinders.
And now, you're trying to tell us - via this Weintraub
piece - that Juan Cole's tussle with Hitchens is much
ado about nothing - or worse, an example of Cole's
duplicitousness.
Whenever your bete noir, Chris Doss, mentions, even in
passing, that the peoples of the CIS have mixed
feelings about the Stalin era we can look forward to
an avalanche of URIs about Stalin's crimes.
As if we don't know.
I suspect that if I were ever to become famous and
popular, you'd dive deep into the archives of LBO and
my blog to locate material demonstrating my perfidy.
A simple question occurs: what are you going on about
here?
Are we to believe that Weintraub's 3,577 words add up
to a refutation of Cole's primary point: Hitchens is
performing character assassination jobs for the right?
And you compound your error by responding to Doug's
query with still more links - all intended to make
Cole look shady.
See, here's what I'm driving at...
In West Philly, where I grew up, I'd sometimes find
myself in fights. Strategic viciousness was often
required. For example, I threw a particularly
dangerous bastard down a flight of steps and leapt on
his mellon-sized head to drive my point home (the
point being, stop fucking with me muthafucka).
During these conflicts, my bros always had my back.
We might argue amongst ourselves on sunny days when
the threat level was low but when the shit started we
put pettiness aside and got to work defending our
right to be left the hell alone.
Bro, we are under fire; the shit has started and you
are taking potshots at allies near and far.
If you were with me back in the day and had punked us
the way you're punking folks you should be critiquing
(because no one's perfect) but, nonetheless,
expressing solidarity with we would've considered you
a hindrance - at best - and maybe a problem that
needed solving.
In short, what the fuck are you up to?
.d. -------- "It's a simple equation folks. Prostitution, divided by Hotels, equals dead Elves."
Olly
.. ..and this:
Dwayne and y'all...even those who call me a shit, whatever mh
called me recently, even CB who has a
trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=trotsky_icepick waiting for me ;-)
There are 'tudes expressed here only slightly less loony than what
I've heard since the late 70's on Pacifica Radio on everything from DU
and the fSU and beyond that go unchallanged...example, John Mage
recently wishing the Red Army had conquered Western Europe. That, for
one such as I, compulsive-obsessive that I am, w/ boxes of copies of
The New Masses and The Nation from the 30's and 40's and having talked
w/many an old Communist, Trotskyist or Socialist active over those
decades, most of whom remained on the Left but, w/o much cavilling
admitted that most if not all of the case by those dreaded Trots and
liberal anti-Communists was correct, can only fly into one of manic
URL burst here. (Which I do far less than I used to, no? I mean there
comes a point you just say, CD, CB, just like I have their entrenched
'tudes and let it be...)
My broader 'tude towards Fisk and Fisking, well, I read a bit of
his huge book, was more impressed than I thought I'd be but, would
agree w/ the review in the Nation that drew some blood. Behind my
"Left Activist Consensus Mileau, " says X well I'll just say anti-X is
a ornerniness yes but, also (citing that Walter Lippman Castrofile on
marxmail recently who couldn't get his activist friends to read the
new book by Steven Kinzer, "Overthrow, " a left-liberal book blurbed
by Sy Hersh and Chalmers Johnson 'cuz they said he was
pro-Contra...when he wasn't!) a rage/despair against activists that
latch onto ONE journalist or expert and never read anyone else or look
for critiques.
I didn't know I was a bete noire, but I think
something of this is tied into thinking that a person
in the CIS who has positive feelings toward Stalin is
somehow comparable to some nut waving a Stalin
portrait in a demonstration in San Francisco.
It's not. Old people here actually lived through the
Stalin era. They were in the War. They lived through
the Seige of Leningrad and the Battle of Stalingrand.
Stalin was their hero -- the battlecry was "Za Rodinu,
za Stalina!" (For the Motherland, for Stalin!"). They
were shot at by fucking machine-guns and had their
villages burned to the ground and all the women in
their families raped and they sometimes lived via
cannibalism. And they saved civilization while they
were at it. Good God, how could a little small-minded
amoral prick like Pug possibly understand that? His
major complaint seems to be something like "oh no,
those people in the CPSU said bad things to me once,
my feelings got hurt, boo-hoo, boo-hoo."
Come to think of it, Victory Day (the main Russian
holiday, celebrating the end of the Great Patriotic
War) is tomorrow. I will spend the day thinking solemn
thoughts and smiling with gratitude at all the old men
wearing their Soviet medals I pass on the street.
--- Dwayne Monroe
wrote:
Whenever your bete noir, Chris Doss, mentions, even in
passing, that the peoples of the CIS have mixed
feelings about the Stalin era we can look forward to
an avalanche of URIs about Stalin's crimes.
As if we don't know.
Dwayne Monroe wrote:
>In short, what the fuck are you up to?
Good question. Michael seems to have crossed a line from questioning
leftist cant to embracing ruling class apologetics. The first is a
valuable service - I get a lot of pleasure out of doing it myself.
The second, though - well, there's a plentiful supply of it and I
don't see why we need any more.
Doug
follow up:
-037644 Big overreaction, and Doug succumbed too easily, IMO, to the necktie party
which had formed. I disagree with MP on many things and I still haven't
decided whether he is deliberately or just innocently provocative, but I
could say the same about a lot of people I've clashed with politically over
the years. So what? We should be wary of circumscribing the boundries of
"permissable" political opinion so tightly; we're not in a life and death struggle against a counter-revolution, and even if we were, history suggests
revolutions can too easily strangle themselves through the overzealous
pursuit of heretics. Michaels's "crime" was to align himself with some
oleogenous critics of Yoshie and Juan Cole and it was proper for to call him
to order on that, as I and others did. Then we should have moved on to more
important things rather than getting involved, as we used to tell our son
when he'd throw a fit, in "a game of uproar". – Marvin Gandall
Hey, I didn't throw him off, and I wouldn't have.
Doug
oops, once again, he stormed off himself and Doug left this fact, once again, veiled enough to stir the a jumpy conclusionist .. . .mmm, I can think of pleasanter scenarios for the eternal return. Klossowski on Nietzsche anybody?
OK. Now for what went before:
http://leninology..pomaded-lardies-on-shit-flinging-binge.html/
About Yoshie - "By the way, this vexatious wheedle was passed to Marc Cooper by a particularly obnoxious character who frequents Doug Henwood's left-wing mailing list, 'LBO Talk', called Michael Pugliese. Sleazy, sneaky little fucker, don't you think?"
haloscan.com/comments/lenin/..33450#245026
Mike a sleazy and whatever else you care (NOT) to call him?
You are a hair and soul splitting mister know all mudministry mysteries in the book aren't you? You are 2 of a kind in my eyes except mikey is too poor to rant fullofftime like you can and never telling how that came about right? Myster sneaky linealonelyan yourself buddy.
Lenin obviously likes sneering at people who are overweight in the west but only shows indifference to the malnurished and starving in Sudan.
Nice guy.
Sandy 4 May, 11:39 #
---------------------------
Much like tim / Sandy, who shows indifference to the malnourished and starving in any country that the West doesn't want to invade and pillage, I'm sorry, "free market reforms".
As to piet's latest... is he Francis E. Dec under an assumed name?
pacifier.com/~dkossy/dec.html
Heather B. 4 May, 11:44 #
-----------------------------------
here I am, all prepared to go search a bleak thin and emaciated ref to a kindred spirit but lo and behold, his name in fat font right atop and no slimmer this: 'FRANCIS E. DEC, ESQUIRE:
YOUR ONLY HOPE FOR A FUTURE!'
so far so good.
next i remember this site has featured Oscar Kiss Maerth (first author I made an effort to trace (in the flesh back in those days).
excuse me a minnit while i read on.
piet Homepage 4 May, 12:19 #
-----------------------------------
ps: I made it into this collection: ratbags.com/ but hey, some folks think that making fun and light of weightiest darkmost grave and serious matters qualifies them as whorlchimps or sumthin.
piet Homepage 4 May, 12:26
not much else left to chop is there? when patrism and/or climate change (talk about circulo vicioso) has turned a place that bleak I'd prefer to look upon them choppers as patients and victims who thrive and multiply when western choppers with that stolen name drone around.
lbo-talk.org../037079.html beginning of a looooooooooong thread concerning all this
MPug quoting LouisP pointing to MP:
>…He got a head’s up on Yoshie’s articles from a character named Michael Pugliese who doesn’t have the guts to join the FBI outright but prefers to snoop on people as an unpaid volunteer.
. .. so .. .anybody got an accurate cite rather than the (misspelled) 'head's up'? .. ... ps: found it later and it’s a shameful slur
hey, that's funny, at the cooper convo (site section 'its-those-jews-again/') the word establishment shows up 19 times (observation valid between about 4AM US ((ChrisD post)) and 15.35 continental eurotime). Funny that .. . after I looked for news of an interesting Hamas ideologue/functionary .. no wait I can do better than that, an establishment Pali Bassam Jarrar who wrote a book on the role of 19 in accurate calendarizing and using gematria to reflect the amounts and measures of time flowing past in the described passage (thought to be a means to stop falsification and making the messenger look good no doubt) and was taken into custody last september.
lenin/114667009623597690/?a=38653#245052
sorry that was 5.15AM and now is 15.55
Piet Homepage 4 May, 15:00 #
Dennis Perrin: And, Yosh, the subject line I chose should clue you in on how I feel about MPug's scurrying over to of all people Marc Cooper. I trust the troll
feeding over there will intensify soon.
I am not sure if he beat Proyect to it or not but saying 'MPug Rats Out Yoshie To Cooper' certainly shows lockstep. Hell, I've posted on extreme right wing sites. What diff does it make to the internal consistency (or non-)? What you left moving right shows up again where you think you're heading if you do so long and far enough.
http://037141.html Mikey makes 'm all look stupid (see previous post too, it's him on sudan in 2004)
and here he is finally, main event and thanks for waiting:
http://...20060501/037130.html Mikey in his very own inimitable style. Consigliere Pugliese here w/ a hurried reply, probably w/ little ofnumerous thoughts and feelings of the last hourthinking about this thread, an offlist e-mail from Julio Huato. Myambivalent, conflicted political identity these last few yrs.(alwaysnot far under the surface memories good and bad, of radical actions ofthe US flag burning and US military base and nuke plant propertydestruction kind) and associations w/ remants of the WeatherUnderground ala PFOC and assorted scurrilous and scholarlyTrotskyists, neo-Maoists, punk anarchists and yes, CB, even CPUSA andex-CPUSA. (More than a few like Bill Sennett, late of the LincolnBrigades and leadership in the Illinois CP, had little troubleadmitting Julius Rosenberg, etc. were spies, doing their proletarianinternationalist duty and would agree w/ the substance of a Trotskyistcritique of Stalinism [or Paul Sweezy's circa 1980], but, would saycomparing the strength of the CPUSA (80K members late 30's vs. 1K, atmost for the SWP and its splits a 'brewin' same period.) But, I rambleavoiding the thread subject ;-) If MRzine means to reach beyond its small audience(Circa 1990, in a small meeting w/ Bob Wing, ex-cadre of Line ofMarch, now w/ UfPJ, which Yoshie seems to have left in disgust, hereviewed w/ us in CCDS, FRSO, Solidarity, DSA, SF Women's Bldg., circulation figures for MR and a dozen other longtime radical leftjournals, all of them in parlous states.) and it was public material, then (albeit defensively) I'd agree w/ Max that what Yoshie and herrespondents on haloscan comment sections said was fair game. (Hitchensbroadcasting the Juan Cole Gulf2000 Gary Sick list translations of theIranian Pres. w/ dreamy eyes on Slate was a low blow.) Why did I send to Cooper's blog? None of my Darfur posts having beenreplied to here and full of bile I sent them there. Though in person awuss who has rarely shouted, get this keypad in front of me and I'mprone to do mayhem...'cuz yes, I do like stirring up shit from afarthat I run away from in personal life, whether familial, w/friends orin the white collar factories I make a sporadic income in. (And thatfill me w/ anger reminding me that whatever my despair about the USLeft in all its ineffectiveness, shallowness and silliness http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/ it emeges out of realinjustices that mainstream upper class liberal Democrats cannot andwill not touch.) Cooper, at least has the virtue of not avoidingsubjects like Castroism or ANSWER , that Daniel Lazare avoid or demogogue, http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060403/exchange . For example thoughThe Nation Books has reissued a classic Left critique of the CubanRevo. by Jorge Edwards, "Persona Non Grata, " that Cooper recommends,how many here would even pick it up?
warning: some folks call MPug 'formattingchallenged' but his priorities lie with reading loads and fast as all too good for peasantry division of labour loving castle occupants must. He has taken to calling himself consigliere. He's as many miles away from understanding people like me as you are myster Leningulagist.
Time for the encore (a link to what I mentioned at the beginning):
ToS holds forth and converses with chabert and here are the relevant bits I tossed in:
paging pj
http://www.adamkotsko.com/weblog/2006/05/troll-of-sorrow-open-thread.html
9:16 PM
Anonymous said...
"pj" ain't gonna help ya, clown.
pj and the Tos (or who u take to be ToS) are not pals or cronies; but ToS is generally cordial to the gent, as he is generally to moi. And pj's no marxist scavenger. But scurry over and help the sunday-schoolers at Weblog: those are the rightists
Yr in need of help, piet; ah suggest for starters, u put down the bukharin primer....
9:35 PM
............. said...
and Miss LCC:
I am not using your boards to stir up more phlames, but ah noted that Mssr. Piet hisself has the bellows out, and responded in kind. It's another flare-up of "Ah wannabe a Fed" typical of the weblog narcissists and some of their palskis. WordCrime is the topic du jour, like usual: but anyways ah'm finished here too, since your few anarchista posts seem mostly absent. Whatevah
if you want to rant at censorship and demonization of what is considered overzealous gathering and presenting the other side, in this case by a gregarious speedreader hypesurfer named Michael Pugliese (whom I have many pov changes to thank for) I suggest you target Dennis Perrin (redstateson), Louis Proyect (marxmail) and lenineuloshits (instead of 'm younguns), whose combined mobbing has succeeded harassing MP off the lbo list again where he'd already made himself pretty scarce after a flair-up over some english pro-serbian writer. I shall make a post for it at indexterity shortly.
9:01 AM
.. .at 10.44 I write: that took for ever didn't it (no wonder even digitaloid bodies can't keep on being patient with poo' rockmudmanme).
